| Notes |
- So how is Michael Clifford included as a son on Edward Clifford with out apparently any relevant supporting documentation?
I was approached about 12 Nov 2021 by Rachel Clifford and asked to see if I could help find her family. She said she did not really know much about her family just a few stories her nan had told her when she had become quite old.
Basically what she said was: "So what I know about my Nan. I know she was the youngest of her siblings but unsure how many there were. In her later years my nan had dementia and I kick myself all the time for not finding out more. But my nan was very cagey and private and didn't discuss family, pasts, etc.
- I think her fathers name was Michael Donovan and her mum was Julie/Julan with the surname O'Regan.
- I think she had another brother called Con (Conrad, Cornelius, Connor maybe). She used to mention Mallow and Coal Quay a lot however I've since discovered that that's where Johnny Clifford's family was from so wondering if she got it mixed up.
- My nan always said her father was from a really well off family, but her mother's side wasn't as well off. She also used to say that her fathers family opened/owned cinema's in Ireland and apparently opened the first cinema/picture house there however I've never found anything on Google when searching this over the years.
- I think my nan's parent died when she was quite young, Not sure how. - Rachel Clifford 12 Nov 2021
So what do we have:
Michael Donovan married a Julia O'Regan, they both died young;
They had amongst other children an Elizabeth Donovan in 1930 and a Michael Donovan in 1932, possibly a brother Con and a Jer; and
Michael's family was really well off and they opened/operated cinema's in Ireland.
So first a search of the marriage cert's show's Michael a Bachelor Coach Builder of 1 Little Market St son of Edmond Donovan a Coach Builder marrying Julia O'Regan a Spinster of 1 Little Market St daughter of Mathew O'Regan a Currier on the 4 Jun 1991 at SS Peter and Pauls. 100% correct on the recollection.
As they are both living at the same address in June 1911 it came as no surprise that they were living again at the same address two months earlier on 2 April 1911 on the census.
Julia 18 is listed as the daughter of the Eliza the head of the family who is widowed and a House Keeper, whilst Michael 30 is listed as a Boarder born Co Cork and a Coach Builder.
So as regards to Michael what we have so far is he was born abt 1881 in Co Cork, son of Edmond Donovan and both were Coach Builders.
Looking forward and up to 1920 we can identify the birth of 5 children Hanora 24 Oct 1911 at 1 Little Market St, Edward 27 Jun 1913 at 27 Kyrl's Street, Leo and Mathew 26 Mar 1917 at 8 Kyrl's Street and Kathleen 1 Oct 1918 at 18 Kyrl's Street. (Identifying children from 1920 to c1932 is hit and miss as most births in the Birth index between those dates don't have a mothers maiden name attached so unless the surname is extremely rare a person in virtually unable to correctly identify a child of any parents.)
So after that gap we have Elizabeth 8 Aug 1930 and Michael 27 Jan 1932.
Julia died aged 46 at 18 Kyrl's Street on 11 Jan 1938 and Michael died aged 57 (according to his death cert so DOB c1885), at 8 Kyrl's Quay. (Kyrl's Street and Quay addresses are virtually interchangeable as they are the same place).
So they did die quite young and not long after Elizabeth was born, 8 when her mom died and 12 when her dad died, so she is 100% on that recollection.
So the next thing is to try and find Michael and Edmond on the 1901 census to try and narrow Michael's age and birth location.
No amount of searching could find Michael by using Coach Builder and Edmond then Edward in County Cork it produced 18 results, 11 of which were to do with coach building. One of which Edward Corrodan 53 and his son Edward Corrodan 20 lived in Mallow.
Once I opened the image up it was clear that the surname was Donovan and we had
Edward Donovan Head, 53, Coach Builder, Widower, born Co Cork
Edward Donovan Son, 20, Coach Builder, Not Married, born Co Cork
Katie Donovan, daughter, 25, Shop Assistant, Not Married , born Co Cork
and Minnie Connolly a Servant..
So I went and looked at and created Edwards family and it is as it now appears on this tree. When I first saw Cornelius Michael I thought that that was the Michael I was searching for as he too was listed as a Coach Builder at the time of his marriage to Bridge Buckley in 1910 and also at the time of the births of two if his children Maureen in 1910 and Kathleen in 1912. But obviously once I found he married Bridge and had his own family I realised he could not be Michael.
No matter where I looked I could not find a birth cert for Michael born to an Edmond/Edward.
In the 1901 Census a search for Coach Builder under Donovan in Cork produces 3: John 40 - Kinsale - Coach Man, Denis 32, Keohanes Lane - Carpenter - Crack Builder and Daniel 45 - Coronea Skibbereen- Journeyman Carriage Builder.
In the 1911 Census using the same search protocol's it produces 7: Daniel 57 (now with his son Jeremiah 22) - Upper Bridge Street, Skibereen - Coach Builder, Cornelius M 26 - 81 Davis street Mallow, Coach Builder & Ironmonger, Michael 30 - 1 Little Market Street Cork - Coach Builder, Jerome 24 - Marsh Skibbereen, Coach Man, Daniel 19 - Upper Bridge St Skibbereen - Coach Smith and John 31 - Croughamore Bishopstown - Coach Painter.
You can see there are not many Donovan - Coach Builder's in what would have been a closed family trade. (As Edward is listed as Corrodan on the 1901 census that is why he and his son Edward do not appear on the 1901 list of 3 so really it is 5.)
So once I had established Edward Donovan and Nora O'Neills family I was able from their 31 Jan 1875 marriage cert to find out the names of their respective father's Cornelius for Edward and Michael for Nora. If Edward and Nora used the normal Irish naming traditions you would expect the first born male to be Cornelius, the second born to be Michael and the third born to be Edward.
What we have from the birth records are Edward, Cornelius and Leo. Why isn't there a Michael?
[Michael himself did use the naming traditions and his first born male was Edward. But what is interesting is that he broke with tradition and named his first born female Hanora after his mother Hanora O'Neill, and it wasn't until 1930, (if we exclude any children that could have been born in the 1920-1930 gap), that an Elizabeth was born and named after his mother in law Eliza Shine]
Now the choice of the name Leo is very interesting and unique. In the entire All Ireland Civil Births Index 1864-1958 there are only two Leo Donovan's registered. (And no Leo O'Neill's) One born in Mallow, which doesn't have a date but I presume it is the Leo who was born 29 Mar 1888 and son of Edward Donovan and Nora O'Neill, the other is Leo Donovan born 26 Mar 1917 to Michael Donovan and Julia O'Regan.
When I researched and found Cornelius M's death cert 25 Dec 1945 his residence was still listed as 81 Main Street, Mallow, what really surprised me though was his stated occupation Cinema Proprietor. This made me think back to Rachel's third point that Elizabeth had raised - they opened/operated cinema's in Ireland. 100% accurate on that recollection.
So I had a choice to make did Michael belong to this family or not? Then I remembered Rachel's comment "my nan was very cagey and private and didn't discuss family, pasts, etc." So I began to wonder if there had been something inappropriate at the time of his birth that the family just didn't want to acknowledge or had they disowned him and I compared this against the all the evidence that strongly suggests that he is indeed the son of Edward Donovan the Coach Builder.
1. He is one of only 3 Coach Builders listed in the available census records who have a father Edward: Edward, Cornelius & Michael.
2. He stated on his marriage cert his father is Edmond and he is a Coach Builder
3. His family opened/operated cinema's in Ireland. I have over 20,000 people on my tree an Cornelius is the first that has that Occupation.
4. Leo Donovan the fact the only two Leo Donovan's every existed in Cork and one is the son of the others brother.
I normally wouldn't make such a call without more substantial documentation, but there is/are no more records that I have been able to find. So I have put him on the tree as a son of Edward and Nora and should I find any document or correspondence that furthers my research I will update it as necessary - Matt Falvey 19 Nov 2021
1911 Census of Ireland
1.1 Little Market Street, Cork City, Co Cork, Ireland
Eliza O'Regan, Head, Catholic, Cannot, Age 44, House Keeper, Widow, Years Married - 28, Children born Alive - 14, Children Still Living - 2, born Co Cork.
Julia O'Regan, Daughter, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 18, General Servant, Single, born Co Cork.
Eliza O'Regan, Daughter, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 9, Scholar, Single, born Co Cork.
Michael Donovan, Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 30, Coach Builder, Single, born Co Cork.
Peter Doolen, Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 28, General Labourer, Single, born Co Cork.
John Monihan, Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 25, Quay Labourer, Single, born Co Cork.
Michael Boylan, Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 23, Quay Labourer, Single, born Co Cork.
Richard Brien, Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 30, Quay Labourer, Single, born Co Cork.
John Bullman, , Catholic, Read & Write, Age 22, Fisherman, Married, born Co Cork. Struck Through
Mary Ann Bullman, Wife, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 21, General Dealer, Married, born Co Cork. Struck Through
James Murphy. Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 28, Stone Cutter, Single, born Co Cork.
John McGrath, Boarder, Catholic, Read & Write, Age 46, Carpenter, Married, Years married - 26, born Co Cork.
Image CensusIreland>ORegan dowloaded but not assigned a
Source No. (OReganEliza_1911IreCenSCFull.jpg)
Image 3DeathCerts>Donovan downloaded but not assigned a Source No. (D1945O'DonovanMichaelSCFull.pdf)
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Abt 1885 - 1942 (~ 57 years)
: Address
: Location
: City/Town
: County/Shire
: State/Province
: Country
: Not Set